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Author Topic: Does Anyone Listen To The Mix When Mastering??  (Read 2086 times)
oldbobd
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« on: December 11, 2009, 11:19:28 PM »

Does any one ever listen to the blend of the instruments and how their parts sound (tone wise) in a mix submitted for mastering?  There is a lot of talk on the Gearslut mastering board about doing mastering entirely by listening and adjusting and processing used in the process - exclusively using one's ears. There'a a lot of talk about listening to things like frequency spectrums.  I ask, What about the mix?

I guess if one wanted to limit oneself to exclusive "ear mastering," never looking at meters or analyzers, and one has success doing it, I think it is great for them, and they should continue.  I know it works for Stevie Wonder.

I have never particularly done this, nor do I want to start now.  I feel that each of these measuring devices all give us an alternate view (from a different sence) of the same thing we hear - so why not? My experience tells me that all things should pretty much agree:  What you see matches what you hear.  I have amazed students by telling them, just what a responce spectrum or metering/analysis will look like/read out like - just by listening.  I am seldom off by very much.

Some very well-knowedable and good mastering engineers have told me they don't look much at meters and sometimes even cover them up, so they doesn't influence what is heard.  I suggest that maybe they are looking at meters or spectrums on first listen - which is too soon (in my opinion).  I recently had the honor of mastering mixes from the old Motown group, the Contours, for an upcoming 2010 release.  The first song was a remnake of their hit, "First I Look at The Purse."  Well as I heard that for the first time, I was in my car, and I listened to the mix. 

By listening to the mix, I mean following the instrument parts, what they are doing and how they compliment each other; listening to the instruments' tone.  In 2009, I have worked at two production studios some 60 miles from home base, doing sessions 2-3 times a week) and I have a lot of listening time, and like any producer/engineer, I know what my car stereo sounds like.

Besides listening to the mix I see how I have to change the volume knob and the bass/treble controls between (or within) songs to get a more consitent product.  This is as far as I go in ME type analysis.  I'm trying to get into the engineer/producer's head as to what was attempted, mix wise, and even what was intended by the arranger/writer.  Sometime corrective DSP is necessary because of problems in the mixing.  These problems can be caused by the mixing being done on particular monitors (e.g., with no sub-woofer or "hyped" midrange by the manufacturer), monitor levels used in mixing, or by inexperience.  But sometimes things that the ME thinks needs "corrected" are quite intended by the producer.

Back at home base, I bring out the analyzers and meters.  Those instruments playing the music can be "seen" on a spectrum analyzer or meter pointer and I use all forms of observing the mix visually as well as by ear. 
 
What areas you decide to apply EQ can be more finely tuned with analyzers than by my ear.  Having the DSP in tune with the mix has beautiful results.  A bass line in the Key of E has a second harmonic at 80 Hz on an analyzer display, and this frequency would be different for the key of C (Hmm... where's that Carnegie chart ?).  We're talking choosing a frequency in 1/12 octave steps - my ears aren't that good and my pitch recognition is even weaker. The analyzer helps with this - although not essential.  Meters help me decide exactly where to make 0.2 - 1.0 dB changes in the volume envelope - again not essential - but accurate and quick.

Most important is to make the cut have competative/client requested levels/loudness, while perserving the intent of the original mix and the original tone on instruments.  After acheiving that, any correction needed can be applied.

So the Contours say, "First I Look At The Purse." I Say: "First I Look At The Mix - By Listening."
wise Bob
 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 11:58:14 PM by oldbobd » Logged

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Silent Bob
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2009, 12:10:03 AM »

Well I'd say if I didn't listen to the mix, I didn't do my job.  As a mastering engineer, I'm the last level of quality control before replication and even after replication.  For instance the last band I mastered, they gave me a copy of their CD and there was 2 second gaps between the songs, which would be fine except there was supposed to be vinyl crackle between the songs with no pregap.  Now there's crackle, then silence, then a new song.  The band had no idea.... I digress.

I remember being involved with a thread on the Gearsluts forum where a guy complained endlessly about what a bad mix his friend got to master.  I asked why he didn't ask for a remix and he jumped down my throat like it was career suicide.  Maybe the mentality is different in the big leagues but at my level, if somebody gives me a bad mix, I ask about it instead of pressing forward blindly.  So I listen to how the vocals sit in the mix.  I listen to the punch of the drums, because there's a trend in home recording to mix the bass drum so low, you can't tell it's there.  I listen to the bass, guitars, keyboards etc.  I remember mastering a record from a very talented guy from this forum.  He gave me a great project with a nice retro feel but the synths were very edgy (think digitally generated sawtooth waves recorded direct..... nasty!) and ate up the top end of the mix.  I suggested piping the sunths through his living room stereo and rerecording them through a mic.  That's what he did and it made all the difference in the world.  Now not all mix issues require a remix.  Like the odd vocal note that's too loud can be handled with narrow band compression or momentary EQ.  Weak bass is usually handles easily enough with EQ also as long as you don't push it.  Sometimes the guitars are overpowering other things, try some M-S level changes.

As for metering.  I never look at digital peak meters or PPMs.  VUs come in handy but whenever I make a unit for myself, somebody wants to buy it so I have to make another.  I'm pretty busy these days so it could be weeks before I build another set, simple as they are.  I find FFT analyzers are too vague in the extreme low end to be used accurately because they're linear, not logarithmic.  So you have all this fine detail up in the mids etc but in the low end, you're dealing with far less than 1/12th octave precision and that doesn't cut it for me.  Lucky I have a piano in the next room so the Carnegie chart is very handy for that, except my piano goes a 3rd lower than the standard grand so the chart doesn't quite cover everything.  I'm much like you though, Bob.  I start totally by ear, then as I get into it, I may pull out my SPL meter to double check my acoustic levels.  I start making overall EQ adjustments by ear etc.  I sometimes use an FFT to help find issues in the higher frequencies etc.  I certainly do the bulk of the work without looking at meters though.

I will record or mix in other facilities but never master outside of my own studio.  It's a familliarity thing.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 12:14:23 AM by Silent Bob » Logged

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brian_gtr
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 01:40:45 PM »

there's a trend in home recording to mix the bass drum so low, you can't tell it's there. 

You should hear the Them Crooked Vultures album, holy crap.  On some tracks, Grohl's kick is the predominant voice.  Unfortunately, the album got squashed in mastering, but the mix sounds awesome.

Well you did say HOME recording, I'm probably guilty of that, but I think much of that has to do with home recordists' improper sound treatment.  Since I put bass traps everywhere, my mixes have had louder kick.  It's a confidence thing, helps to know what the low frequencies REALLY sound like.
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oldbobd
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 02:02:05 PM »

there's a trend in home recording to mix the bass drum so low, you can't tell it's there. 

You should hear the Them Crooked Vultures album, holy crap.  On some tracks, Grohl's kick is the predominant voice.  Unfortunately, the album got squashed in mastering, but the mix sounds awesome.

Well you did say HOME recording, I'm probably guilty of that, but I think much of that has to do with home recordists' improper sound treatment.  Since I put bass traps everywhere, my mixes have had louder kick.  It's a confidence thing, helps to know what the low frequencies REALLY sound like.

And there's a tendency in home recording doing Hip Hop to hear nothing but the kick drum  Grin

Truth is it's all over the place (from my experience)
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ghprod
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 03:17:16 AM »

Yes, usually, i always hear the mix when mastering, dunno why, maybe bcause i'm a amateur ... lol ...

but someone said, that mastering just enhanced from mix, so mastering enginer must listen to mix first and get the color Smiley

regards
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beenman123
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 02:38:26 AM »

Nice post. This is a great work. wise wise wise
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beenman
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